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Re: [Xen-devel] [Xen-users] xen forum

On Fri, 24 May 2013, Gordan Bobic wrote:
> On 05/24/2013 03:04 PM, Konrad Rzeszutek Wilk wrote:
> > > > > It would be easier for us if the bug reports and such were posted on
> > > > > xen-devel.
> > > > > Please consult http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html
> > > > > when
> > > > > doing it.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > My own experience is that posts (at least from me) are regularly
> > > > missed/ignored on the devel list, including a signed patch, so I
> > > > personally think a bug tracker would be a better option. Bug trackers
> > > > don't (or at least shouldn't :) ) forget or miss. That's they're raison
> > > > d'etre. I honestly don't know how anyone can do business using this
> > > > list, but that's just my humble opinion.
> > > 
> > > Did you also look in the MAINTAINERS file to make sure you copied the
> > > right
> > > maintainer?
> > > 
> > > The reason for skipping the Bugzilla system is that it is soo out of date
> > > that
> > > we don't use it anymore.
> > 
> > 
> > Actually I recall there is a secondary reason too - which is that we get
> > copied
> > on distros bugs that affect Xen. For example in Fedora I (and Dariof) get
> > copied on
> > any Linux kernel issues that are related to Xen. In Debian I believe Ian
> > Campbell
> > gets copied as well. For SuSE it is Jan and Olaf. Not sure about the other
> > distros.
> > 
> > And then if you use Oracle Linux, I get copied too. Then there is the
> > internal bug system
> > if you using OVM and the Linux kernel bug-system where I get copied too.
> > 
> > That is a lot of bug systems to keep track of - and since most of the users
> > use a
> > distro they end up using their distro bug-system. And then Xen's bugzilla
> > system
> > became less and less important to keep track of stuff.
> > 
> > Oh, and there are the five mailing lists and the fire-hose LKML. Yuck, soo
> > many emails.
> Surely the sensible thing to do is to have one Xen bug tracking system and
> only use that. If distro maintainers wish to file bugs in the Xen bug tracker
> for Xen bugs, they are free to do so, same as any other user. Xen is the
> upstream project - Xen bugs should be fed from distros up to Xen, not the
> other way around. Xen bugs are then tracked with the single Xen bug tracker
> and they are all in one place, searchable reviewable and easy to keep track
> of. Is this not obvious? Am I missing missing an issue that has been
> too-subtly implied but not explicitly stated?

In an ideal world maybe. What usually happens is that distros keep using
their bug trackers and keep recommending their users to fill bug to
them. These bug trackers get out of sync with the upstream bug tracker.
Moreover some people don't use bug trackers and submit bugs as emails
anyway, as a consequence the bug tracker usually needs to be kept
up-to-date manually by one or more members of the community. In the long
run they tend to be "left behind".
In Linux it has been tried several times to introduce bug trackers,
most of the times failing completely.

> > It is mostly FIFO with the 'oh wow, this needs to be fixed NOW!' preempting
> > it.
> > In all honestly it sucks as a track system, but I am not really sure of how
> > else to do this
> > without spending a massive time doing 'click here on this button and add
> > this comment,
> > set dependency on this bug' and instead concentrate my time in an editor.
> > 
> > I believe we need something that can bridge both of these - helping
> > developers to
> > know about bugs and also track them so users know that things are done and
> > not ignored.
> > And so low maintaince for developers that they can focus on looking at code
> > all day.
> I don't think this is a new problem, and I do think the problem has been
> solved many times and solved well. If there is an obvious flaw in what I said
> above, please do point it out. But claiming that a broadcast system is bad and
> therefore ignoring a single-point tracking system is the way forward is as
> much of a contradiction in terms as I can imagine on this subject.
It is not a new problem but it has never been solved properly, just give
a look at the status of bug trackers in the linux kernel to get an idea.
Lunchpad was supposed to be the bug tracker to rule them all, but it
ended up being just one more bug tracker.

That said, I don't mean that it's all hopeless and doomed, you certainly
raised some good points and I think we have room for improvement.
It's just not as simple as it seems.
Personally I am in favor of introducing a bug tracker if we have a way
to integrate it into our current process and make sure it's kept up to

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