Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH] replace rdtsc emulation-vs-native xen boot option with per-domain (hypervisor part)

[Jeremy Fitzhardinge <jeremy@xxxxxxxx>]

On 09/29/09 10:34, Dan Magenheimer wrote:
>> The TSC is not, and has never been reliable.
>>     
> Your data is stale.  Please discuss this with processor
> and system vendors (I have)

I'm sure they would say that, as they frequently have in the past.  And
then it breaks again.

Even then their guarantee only applies while the processor is powered up
and hasn't been reset.  But resets can occur while the system is
"running" in the form of S3 suspend events, or even completely powered
off when suspending to disk.

Besides, the SDM makes no claims about tsc synchronization between CPUs,
only that on a given CPU/core is at a constant rate (at least from now
on, promise!).  At that point you're relying on motherboard/system
design, which has a lot more scope for brokenness than just core CPUs. 
Large systems simply don't keep all their CPUs in the same clock domain,
and certainly won't guarantee that for all future system designs.

>  and look at the latest upstream Linux.
>   
The kernel does what it needs to do to make the tsc usable for itself. 
It does not make (and has never made) any guarantees about how the tsc
appears in usermode (except for the purposes of implementing
vgettimeofday).  You won't find many Linux kernel developers who are
sympathetic with the idea of making any hard guarantees for bare
usermode tsc use.

>> Except that it comes with a terrible cost...
>> This is a massive regression...
>>     
> It is certainly significant but "terrible" and "massive"
> are a bit strong.  Based on my measurements, the examples
> you cite will degrade performance by a fraction of a percent.
>   
How have you measured this?  On what systems?  Your patch introduces
this regression on all systems for everyone; it isn't enough to measure
it on a new Nehalem machine.

>> The fact that you haven't named a single real app...
>> Are you really arguing on the basis that "some apps
>> might use tsc in a fragile way" or do you actually have a 
>> specific list
>>     
> I have a (small) specific list.  For various reasons,
> I cannot go into further detail.
>   

Well, that goes back to my point about spending a lot of effort on
something that can only possibility benefit a (small) set of niche
apps.  Spending the effort on a vsyscall approach would be fast, correct
and widely beneficial.

You can default it on within Oracle, or even in Oracle's Xen distro. 
It's unreasonable to make this a global default when you're trying to
solve a local problem.  You haven't established this is something that
anyone else need be concerned about.

Besides, if they want a global sequence number, why not just keep a
global counter?  That's going to be much cheaper and more reliable than
anything time-based.

    J

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